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Too Much Light.... REALLY!?

ian_m

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Plus the idea of adding even more Mg contributing to an increase in hard water
Not sure adding MgSO4 affects the dGH/dKH as that is to do with carbonates.

I am sure there is nowhere in the UK that has significant hardness due to Mg. Might be wrong. There certainly is in US and Italy as reported by UKAPS members.
 

Aeropars

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So I'm confused. I've been dosing EI with the following chemicles:

Potassium Nitrate (KNO3)
Monopotassium Phosphate (KH2PO4)

This is based on James Planted Tank site (http://www.theplantedtank.co.uk/EI.htm)

I live in the Midlands and have typically hard water from Severn Trent Water. Are you saying that I should be dosing MGS04 (Epsom Salts) as part of my EI regime? If so, how do I know how much to dose?
 

Bacms

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So I'm confused. I've been dosing EI with the following chemicles:

Potassium Nitrate (KNO3)
Monopotassium Phosphate (KH2PO4)

This is based on James Planted Tank site (http://www.theplantedtank.co.uk/EI.htm)

I live in the Midlands and have typically hard water from Severn Trent Water. Are you saying that I should be dosing MGS04 (Epsom Salts) as part of my EI regime? If so, how do I know how much to dose?

If you read their guide they also suggest you may need to add epson salts if your tap water is low on Mg2+ which from the previous posts suggest that's the case with the majority of England. You can use the http://www.aquariumcalculators.com/ to calculate the amounts you need.

@ian_m unless I again got it totally wrong water hardness is a measure of divalent cations on the water, mainly Ca2+ and Mg2+ so I would assume Epson salt contribute to this. If I am not mistaken you can add sodium bicarbonate to raise Kh and Epson salts to raise Gh only
 

ian_m

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@ian_m unless I again got it totally wrong water hardness is a measure of divalent cations on the water, mainly Ca2+ and Mg2+ so I would assume Epson salt contribute to this. If I am not mistaken you can add sodium bicarbonate to raise Kh and Epson salts to raise Gh only
You are right, which is why I said, not sure. Just checked and you are right GH (general hardness) is the presence of Mg (and Ca), so adding MgSO4 will increase GH (and not affect KH, carbonate hardness).

However clearly plants need Mg so adding MgSO4 is a must (in UK).
 

dw1305

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Hi all,
Well I was just following the instructions on the pack saying I might not need it in very hard water regions.
Yes, it is a difference between the UK and USA, and it is just down to geology. The UK aquifers are mostly limestones, and the Chalk (Cretaceous), Jurassic age (Oolite etc) and Carboniferous age limestones were laid down in deep ocean basins, before being compressed (so basically having the water squeezed out of them) deep underground.

North America is different in that the central plains (all the way from the Gulf of Mexico to Canada) are part of a stable land mass that has been there for billions of years (<the "craton">), but which at various times has been inundated by sea-water to form an "epicratonic sea", a sea which has repeatedly evaporated and re-formed.

In sea water magnesium is the second most common cation after sodium (Na), and magnesium carbonate (MgCO3) is more soluble than calcium carbonate (CaCO3). The end result of this is that as the sea evaporates a crust of magnesium carbonate has calcium carbonate deposit on it and over geological time some of the magnesium migrates into the limestone to form <"Dolomite"> (same thing happened around the Mediterranean sea as it has evaporated and re-formed).

Water from a dolomite aquifer is rich in magnesium, while water from a limestone aquifer is practically devoid of it.

cheers Darrel
 

Paulo Soares

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One curious thing i´d like to understand. What is the optimal concentration of Mganesium in a fresh water tank? How many PPM?
And how can we measure it if there aren´t any tests to do it?
JBL as one CA /MG test sewt for marine tanks. Not fresh.

So.. what figures of CA and MG are we talking about for a fresh water tank?
And how to measure it?
If i want do dose separately as i do with the other salts how do i manage that?

I have a bottle of each salt of KNO3 / PO4 and KCl where 1 ml of each one is equal to 1 PPM.

I can make one too of CA and another of MG but how much should i dose each every day?
I was looking in the web for optimal PPM in a fresh tank but i can´t find and not even a test for it.

Best regards.
 

Bacms

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One curious thing i´d like to understand. What is the optimal concentration of Mganesium in a fresh water tank? How many PPM?
And how can we measure it if there aren´t any tests to do it?
JBL as one CA /MG test sewt for marine tanks. Not fresh.

So.. what figures of CA and MG are we talking about for a fresh water tank?
And how to measure it?
If i want do dose separately as i do with the other salts how do i manage that?

I have a bottle of each salt of KNO3 / PO4 and KCl where 1 ml of each one is equal to 1 PPM.

I can make one too of CA and another of MG but how much should i dose each every day?
I was looking in the web for optimal PPM in a fresh tank but i can´t find and not even a test for it.

Best regards.

Afaik there isn't an ideal KH/GH for plants, most people aim for the KH/GH they need to keep the fish they want or just use whatever comes out of the tap. Of course there are exceptions to this rules and there are a few plants that prefer slightly acidic conditions and some that require hard water like Valisneria. The best way to achieve a known KH/GH is simply to start with RO water which as 0KH/0GH and add add sodium bicarbonate and epson salts (not sure on the amounts but a google search should tell you) or commercial available buffers for this purpose.
 

dw1305

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Hi all,
How many PPM?
Five ppm Mg should be plenty, but if you have 10 ppm it won't matter.

If you have hard water, then plants that naturally come from hard water are pretty good at taking up the cations other than Ca++ that they need, as well as using HCO3- as a carbon source etc.

cheers Darrel
 

Aeropars

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Hi all.

Its been some time since I've taken your advice and to be honest, I'm not really sure how things are going. I've re-scaped the tank after putting in Tropical Plant substrate capped with Unipac sand. I've also added some additional plants which I got from some of the guys in the for sale section. Admittedly, I have had some CO2 issues due to a broken bubble counter which spring a leak without being touched.

That I have observed is that some of the plants which were in the old set-up are still not growing. In particular I can see that my hairgrass has not spread one bit and my Hydrocotyle Tripartita hasn't grown at all. Some of the old stems I had are showing some signs of growing however there has also been some deterioration of the plants which I added. I'm unsure as to whether this was because of being chilled in transit. One thing I have seen is my angel fish nibbling at some plants, particularly the P. Helferi whcih makes me suspect that the buds from the H. Tripartita could well be eaten before they can sprout leafs.

So to summarise what I have at the moment....

- 4 x Growbeam 600's which are 8cm form the water surface running at 10%
- Dosing EI, now with MGS04
- CO2 is pressurised and diffused into the water column. Half is sucked into the filter, the rest is blown around the tank. Drop checker is getting to lime green for lights on and I record a 0.9ph drop. (PH settles at 6.8)

What would you do form this point? Start to increase lighting again or stay put for the time being?
 

ian_m

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One thing I have seen is my angel fish nibbling at some plants
You will be surprised about fish nibbling plants. I grew a monster carpet of HC & Glosso, but slowly over time the HC shrunk to nothing and the Glosso stopped sprouting and ended up as just stalks. Then by careful observation and taking pictures just before lights off and just after lights on, I observed plants were suffering physical damage due to fish nibbling. Main culprits were my clown loaches and Siamese Algae Eaters, who for at least a year or two (enough to get decent plant mass) had shown no interest in eating the plants. They were eating the roots of HC and any new shoots on the Glosso. What made them start eating plants, I don't know, under feeding ?

However once all these naughty fish were removed, the Glosso recovered well, but HC was terminal and never recovered.
 

Aeropars

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I think that might explain some of it then although I'm not seeing that on the hairgrass. That's is just stubbornly sitting there dormant! On closer inspection, I do have some chunks taken out of the leafs of some of the larger stem plants too. Anyone want a pair of angel fish?! :D
 

Sk3lly

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Aeropars i had observed similar issues within my own low tech tank. Ok my anubias and crypts grow just fine, as do the buces. As for the hairgrass and certain hygro stem plants they neither died nor did they grow. This in my opinion is not right!! Everything should grow!!!!

So in very small stages i would up the light intensity. Maybe a few percent at a time. I would observe the plant changes, co2 drop colour and ph levels to see if it needed altering. If all was ok and no signs of algae after a few weeks, up the percentage again and observe.

Ive gone from running my light at 50% up to 80% so far.

Ok my crypts melted a few times but have always bounced back. Better colouration on buces. Hairgrass is now starting to send out runners which is what i want. My co2 had to be upped to counter the increased lighting and i also dose slightly higher EI amounts. I also added an extra 50% water change a week. I know in large tanks this is not always possible.

I think planted tank keeping is all about experimenting and learning from your choices.

As long as changes are made slowly and one at a time, it allows you to observe


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

Aeropars

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Hi Sk3lly,

Its reassuring to see someone who has also had these problems, and more importantly came out the other side with good progress! This week is the 3rd week since the tank was re-scaped so I think now I have my CO2 stable and at the right level I will increase the lighting again and see how that goes. I can't believe the difference between LED and T8 lighting. I thought it would be a doddle but its almost like I've had to learn the hobby from scratch again!
 

alto

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Assuming your tank is a Juwel Rio 180
100 cm x 40 cm x 50cm high, I suspect your PAR levels at substrate are very low (these are not high initensity LED's so depth penetration is limited) ie begin increasing intensity on those Growbeams!

If you want to be conservative, you can up the intensity on Gb 1 & 3, leaving 2 & 4 at 10%, then next day 1 & 3 10%, upping 2 & 4 etc
OR as you don't mention photoperiod, split the increased light over all 4 Gb's during the single photoperiod (not sure what sort of controller you have)

I'd've likely started these lights at 40% initially, then adjusted from there ... based upon your pH drop & drop checker, your CO2 should not be an issue.

The angels may have to go, or plants may outgrow the Angel Effect :)
Also add a spirulina food to their diet (eg, spirulina brine shrimp)
 

Bacms

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Also assuming ramp is linear I have 2x25WT8 and 2xGrobeams at 20% at the moment on a Juwel Vision 180, so I should be getting the same light as from your 4xGrobeam + 50W from the T8. From my experience tank health improved when I added the Grobeam to the T8s. Although I can't say for sure because I also introduced a cleaning crew of shrimps around the same time
 

Aeropars

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Hi Alto.

Yes, its a Rio 180 and my photo period is 8.5 hours with a 30 minute ramp up and down. I'm using two controllers (the two way version)

The odd thing is, when I first got these I did run them at 40% and everything melted even though my CO2 was good. I have to say I wasn't dosing MGS04 at that point though.

So it looks like the consensus is to increase the light?
 

Bacms

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Hi Alto.

Yes, its a Rio 180 and my photo period is 8.5 hours with a 30 minute ramp up and down. I'm using two controllers (the two way version)

The odd thing is, when I first got these I did run them at 40% and everything melted even though my CO2 was good. I have to say I wasn't dosing MGS04 at that point though.

So it looks like the consensus is to increase the light?
I would say so just be patient increase like 1% every couple of days or so. That is what I did when I added my LEDs
 

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