Wallichii substitute!

[KirstyF]

Hi All
I’m after some fine leaved stems for my hardish water. 12kh/gh.

I love Wallichii but don’t think they would fair well in my water so wondering if anyone has some recommendations for a substitute with a similar fine leaf type and a little bit of colour would be nice.

Running Co2, medium light, full EI for anyone not familiar with my tank.

Thanks in advance for any replies. 😊

 

[Hanuman]

Well it is advertised as Wallichii and from aqua essentials, who are pretty reliable, so I’m assuming it will be Wallichii that I get. 🤞

Regarding reliability, don't get your hopes high just because it's coming from whatever company name. Even ADA has been knows to mis label plant sp. For instance Blyxa Japonica is being sold as Blyxa Nuvoguinensis... That's right, from ADA. And there are other cases...

 

[KirstyF]

Rotala wallichii no tech

Hi Added this rotala wallichii 1 2 grow to my black water tank the other week as I saw something online mentioning that rotala wallichii wasn’t a difficult plant at all and could be grown low tech as long as it had soft water. I thought I’d gamble and give it a go. I was expecting the plant to...

ukaps.org

here is the link for pictures of @Conort2 's wallichi. if people with no co2, high light (sudipta, erwin) can grow it with no co2 can grow the plant with no stunting, is this not something that shows EI dosing doesn't work for all plants? am not trying to say EI never works, just that some plants wont like it, and there can be adjustments made for improvements.

I think it would be fair to say that no one method works optimally for all plants in all situations as there are just too many variables.

I think it would also be fair to say that EI has been shown to work for ‘most’ plants in ‘most’ situations when applied with other effective husbandry.

This doesn’t mean that other dosing methods don’t work or even that other dosing methods may not in fact be better for some specific plants, but the key thing about EI is that it is ‘easy’ to apply and that’s why it has been adopted by so many people and offered so many good results.

Whilst this is being explored in much greater detail on the lean dosing thread, I feel that ‘lean dosing’ is almost a bit of a misnomer. It’s leaner that EI, that’s for sure, but it’s not about deprivation. (Chasing red colouration being an exception I guess) EI is, by definition, dosing to excess, so there’s a huge range that is not full EI and no reason at all why less than full EI wouldn’t still be enough in any given situation.

The beauty of EI, is not needing to figure out how much is ‘just enough’ because you always have more than that.

If you follow EI through you can, in fact, start with EI ‘standard’, reduce until you see a deficiency and then pop back up a step, thereby dosing to the level of your ‘hungriest’ plant. This would still fall within the methodology of dosing to excess.

To get any leaner than that, you need to start looking at individual components to figure out what you can/should lose without an overall negative impact and/or to improve performance in your specific tank and some people no doubt do this very well.

As most EI users would report minimal negatives, the need for a more complex solution is also minimal, but it doesn’t mean there aren’t situations where an alternative to EI may be effective, and there are plenty of folks that don’t use EI or use a slightly different ‘version’ of EI and still grow plants.

I’d have to say however that I’m not sure your example shows that EI doesn’t work, just that it’s not the only thing that can work. You’d need to show a consistent failure under EI to prove it as actually being ineffective for that plant.

 

[KirstyF]

Regarding reliability, don't get your hopes high just because it's coming from whatever company name. Even ADA has been knows to mis label plant sp. For instance Blyxa Japonica is being sold as Blyxa Nuvoguinensis... That's right, from ADA. And there are other cases...

Ok, we’ll I’ll post it on here and, assuming it lives long enough to be identifiable, you guys can tell me what it is. 👍

I’m not sure I’ll be able to tell the difference off the bat! 😊

 

[Happi]

Even "Rotala Vietnam" can look somewhat similar to these plants. But they all have one thing in common, they never fail to grow under urea.

 

[JacksonL]

View attachment 185198

My Rotala Wallichii (which might be Enie - I just bought another bunch of Rotala Wallichii which the shop got from APC Thailand so I will compare the 2 once the latter converts to submersed) is a lot 'bushier' rather than 'thin and narrow' (these are just excess cuttings of overgrown stems which I dumped into my spare tank so please excuse the excessive bending....they usually grow reasonably straight)

That doesn’t look like rotala to my novice eye, looks more like a myriophyllum sp.
I am very likely to be wrong though!

 

[Hanuman]

That doesn’t look like rotala to my novice eye, looks more like a myriophyllum sp.

Myriophyllum has branching leaves. You can see in the picture above that those are single uniform long leaves.

Below is Myriophyllum spicatum:

 

[GreggZ]

If you follow EI through you can, in fact, start with EI ‘standard’, reduce until you see a deficiency and then pop back up a step, thereby dosing to the level of your ‘hungriest’ plant. This would still fall within the methodology of dosing to excess.

Excellent post. And Tom Barr has said exactly the same thing you said above many times. Still there are those that choose to ignore that as it doesn't fit their dogma that EI is the source of all evil. It's been going on for many years and I just don't get it. There are many ways to manage a successful tank, and starting with EI and adjusting to your individual tanks needs is surely one of the most successful methods out there.

 

[ElleDee]

I have wondered how much genetic diversity among stem plants there is in the hobby and how much that influences this kind of discussion. Setting aside named cultivars which I assume to be entirely clonally propagated, out of everyone who has grown Rotala wallichii on this thread, how many unique genotypes are we talking about I wonder? There can be a lot of diversity within a species, so I wouldn't be surprised if some individuals could handle harder water better than others, potentially leading to different people having somewhat contradictory experiences growing it.

 

[Conort2]

I think it would be fair to say that no one method works optimally for all plants in all situations as there are just too many variables.

100 percent, most plants have been the opposite and have grown like weeds for me in EI. If I went and chucked most of my crypts in the water I’m growing the wallichii in now they would melt away never to be seen again. EI doesn’t grow every plant around optimally just in the same way that lean dosing doesn’t work for every plant either, there’s many ways to skin a cat.

Cheers

 

[G H Nelson]

I have grown Wallichii in Hemel Hempstead Concrete tap-water but I was running copious amounts of Co2!

hoggie

 

[PARAGUAY]

😍 beautiful Hoggie

 

[plantnoobdude]

I think it would be fair to say that no one method works optimally for all plants in all situations as there are just too many variables.

I agree, and there is no magic recipe for success with all plants.

I’d have to say however that I’m not sure your example shows that EI doesn’t work, just that it’s not the only thing that can work. You’d need to show a consistent failure under EI to prove it as actually being ineffective for that plant.

I made it a point not to say "EI doesn;t work.". I said EI doesn't work for all plants, perhaps a more suited statement is, "EI isn;t optimal for all plants."

anyway, Here are some pictures and links of common EI issues I've collected to show issues where EI fails, if you notice it's almost always lythracaea (or however you spell that lol)
from @Zeus.

full EI dose of K excellent co2, still pinholes. I hope he can confirm if the issue was ever resolved or not.

whats the deal with nesaea pedicellata?

Hey guys, Just trying to grow nesaea pedicellata and ammania gracilis as well. I'm having a bit of hit and miss with them. Tank specs are 130g - 48 x 24 x 28 deep 3x 54w hot5's w reflectors at 32" from substrate 2x gieseman midday 1 gieseman aquaflora. Up aquasoil pressurised co2 -...

barrreport.com

EI and ammannia pedicellata almost never works

Stunted Nesaea pedicellata - gold

I aquired some Nesaea gold last week and its growing but the new growth on most but not all the stems are growing in gnarled/curled. Id say 6 out of 10 stems are this way.. was wondering if anyone here has experience with this plant .. I'm not sure if this is a deficiency or if it just...

barrreport.com

no pictures but still another case of stunting.

nesaea pedicellata and l. peruensis problems

www.plantedtank.net

full EI excellent co2, still stunting and melting

Deficiency?

www.aquaticplantcentral.com

EI dosing and ammannia from @erwin123
it stunted promtply and didn't look very good under moderate dose of APT. some stems looking decent and some completely twisted and stunted, this is seen quite commonly under richer dosing.

now with lower dose of the all in one and some nh4/urea from root tabs (which I believe helps a lot) the plant looks better.

rotala wallichi problems

www.plantedtank.net

EI and wallichii. problem

Issues with growing wallichii

Hi all, Been following threads in this forum Love the advice. Please help, I've trouble growing wallichii and downois I've posted some pictures and you can see the problem of stunted growth with wallichii or no growth with downoi's. Thanks

www.ukaps.org

everything growing well, wallichii not under EI.

Help with Rotala wallichii

Hi Guys, I bought some R. Wallichii and planted them in my tank. They have been in there for like 3 months now, and I have some questions. 1. When I bought them, they were showing a very nice pink. Almost luminous. Now mine is more like rusty red. 2. Some of my stems are showing thick...

www.aquaticquotient.com

rotala wallichii issue.

Various Ammania and one Ludwigia stunting

www.plantedtank.net

ammannia pedicellata issues under EI.

ammannia pedicellata golden Issue

www.plantedtank.net

EI issue with pedicellata.

rotala wallichii under EI struggling

Rotala Walichii

www.plantedtank.net

I am hoping this is enough links and pictures, to show that EI does not work for all plants.

on the other hand, there are examples of people growing wallichii, ammannia under high light low co2 (or even no co2) with no stunting. these tanks usually utilise urea/nh4. whether that be from substrate, fertiliser, or root tabs. when you see people who are beginners growing ammannia, wallichii well. they are usually using softwater, rich substrate and tropica fertiliser, or seachem.

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

advocate almost all problems are Co2 related?

That was one of the reasons I needed <"a floating plant"> for the <"Duckweed Index">, they

• always have access to at least <"400 ppm of aerial CO2">.
• They can't be grown emersed (or if they are they don't need to acclimate to being submerged) and they are,
• pre-adapted to <"incredibly bright light">, so you are unlikely to fry them with Clive's <"Klingon photon torpedo of light">.

Once you've discounted PAR and Inorganic carbon, all you have left are the 14 (or 17) <"essential mineral nutrients">.

perhaps a more suited statement is, "EI isn;t optimal for all plants."

That is definitely what I think, it is <"orchid / tomato dichotomy">. If you really have a <"lot of nutrients?"> You may begin to veer into <"toxicity not deficiency">.

cheers Darrel

 

[eminor]

I always had issue with walichii with EI, same with cabomba furcata, weird thing is that sensitive plant are easier in non co2 tank for me. i can't grow nice tuberculatum in high tech tank, in my walstad tank it grows really fine, same with walichii.

i found that tuberculatum, walichii and furcata hate flow, i might be wrong, but they grow way better in stagnant water.

The more care i take of a tank, the more trouble i get

 

[Hanuman]

i found that tuberculatum, walichii and furcata hate flow,

I don't know about Wallichii and Furcata since I have never grown them but Myriophyllum tuberculatum has absolutely no problem with flow even though they are found naturally in slow-flowing or stagnant waters. My Myriophyllum tuberculatum is straight in front of my skimmer and in-tank pump ouflow and the plant is swinging all day long. No problems there whatsoever.

 

[eminor]

I don't know about Wallichii and Furcata since I have never grown them but Myriophyllum tuberculatum has absolutely no problem with flow even though they are found naturally in slow-flowing or stagnant waters. My Myriophyllum tuberculatum is straight in front of my skimmer and in-tank pump ouflow and the plant is swinging all day long. No problems there whatsoever.

View attachment 185253

I didn't know its natural habitat is stagnant water, so i might not have the skill yet to grow it well in high tech, still wonder why i have way more success in low tech tank. that plant is an obsession, so beautifull, i've seen some grow it in low light tank, i need tons of light to get it right in my low tech

 

[GreggZ]

I always had issue with walichii with EI, same with cabomba furcata, weird thing is that sensitive plant are easier in non co2 tank for me. i can't grow nice tuberculatum in high tech tank, in my walstad tank it grows really fine, same with walichii.

i found that tuberculatum, walichii and furcata hate flow, i might be wrong, but they grow way better in stagnant water.

The more care i take of a tank, the more trouble i get

This is where these conversations get tricky. People often make the mistake of immediately correlating every problem to nutrients. In reality it could be a number of different things.

Here is my Cabomba Furcata grown with 25 ppm NO3 and 8 ppm PO4 in the water column.

 

[KirstyF]

I agree, and there is no magic recipe for success with all plants.

I made it a point not to say "EI doesn;t work.". I said EI doesn't work for all plants, perhaps a more suited statement is, "EI isn;t optimal for all plants."

anyway, Here are some pictures and links of common EI issues I've collected to show issues where EI fails, if you notice it's almost always lythracaea (or however you spell that lol)
from @Zeus.
View attachment 185244
full EI dose of K excellent co2, still pinholes. I hope he can confirm if the issue was ever resolved or not.

whats the deal with nesaea pedicellata?

Hey guys, Just trying to grow nesaea pedicellata and ammania gracilis as well. I'm having a bit of hit and miss with them. Tank specs are 130g - 48 x 24 x 28 deep 3x 54w hot5's w reflectors at 32" from substrate 2x gieseman midday 1 gieseman aquaflora. Up aquasoil pressurised co2 -...

barrreport.com

EI and ammannia pedicellata almost never works

Stunted Nesaea pedicellata - gold

I aquired some Nesaea gold last week and its growing but the new growth on most but not all the stems are growing in gnarled/curled. Id say 6 out of 10 stems are this way.. was wondering if anyone here has experience with this plant .. I'm not sure if this is a deficiency or if it just...

barrreport.com

no pictures but still another case of stunting.

nesaea pedicellata and l. peruensis problems

www.plantedtank.net

View attachment 185245
full EI excellent co2, still stunting and melting

Deficiency?

www.aquaticplantcentral.com

EI dosing and ammannia from @erwin123
it stunted promtply and didn't look very good under moderate dose of APT. some stems looking decent and some completely twisted and stunted, this is seen quite commonly under richer dosing.

View attachment 185247
now with lower dose of the all in one and some nh4/urea from root tabs (which I believe helps a lot) the plant looks better.
View attachment 185248

rotala wallichi problems

www.plantedtank.net

EI and wallichii. problem

Issues with growing wallichii

Hi all, Been following threads in this forum Love the advice. Please help, I've trouble growing wallichii and downois I've posted some pictures and you can see the problem of stunted growth with wallichii or no growth with downoi's. Thanks

www.ukaps.org

everything growing well, wallichii not under EI.

Help with Rotala wallichii

Hi Guys, I bought some R. Wallichii and planted them in my tank. They have been in there for like 3 months now, and I have some questions. 1. When I bought them, they were showing a very nice pink. Almost luminous. Now mine is more like rusty red. 2. Some of my stems are showing thick...

www.aquaticquotient.com

rotala wallichii issue.

Various Ammania and one Ludwigia stunting

www.plantedtank.net

ammannia pedicellata issues under EI.
View attachment 185249

ammannia pedicellata golden Issue

www.plantedtank.net

EI issue with pedicellata.
View attachment 185250

rotala wallichii under EI struggling

Rotala Walichii

www.plantedtank.net

I am hoping this is enough links and pictures, to show that EI does not work for all plants.

on the other hand, there are examples of people growing wallichii, ammannia under high light low co2 (or even no co2) with no stunting. these tanks usually utilise urea/nh4. whether that be from substrate, fertiliser, or root tabs. when you see people who are beginners growing ammannia, wallichii well. they are usually using softwater, rich substrate and tropica fertiliser, or seachem.

I agree that EI is not a magic bullet and there are undoubtedly plants that will thrive in non-EI conditions. With the diversity of plant life available that makes complete sense.

I would also have to assume, based on evidence, that you would equally have to agree that EI works pretty good in ‘most’ circumstances right!

Interestingly amongst your links I’ve seen:

New lights added x2, Co2 issues, no ph profiles, brand new plant moved from low light to high light, multiple inconclusive, ie not enough information to conclude a cause, 1 person growing well in inert substrate, 1 person seeing improvement following reduction in photoperiod and increase in Co2, 1 example of Wallichii growing well under EI…..so it’s a tricky sucker huh!

So…..can these plants be grown with EI…yes!. Is EI an optimal environment for this plant, maybe not. What are the most critical factors to success? Now there’s a question.

I would be asking why is it that some people are able to grow these plants in environments that appear to sit outside of their optimal range? Time, patience, luck, excellent husbandry perhaps? There has to be a reason why some have succeeded. But hey, why make things difficult for yourself? If growing Wallichii and Ammania is the key goal of your tank then setting up parameters that are optimal for these specific plants makes sense. In the same way that if you want to grow a Glosso carpet, aiming for super low light might not be the way forward.

But, people are fickle beasts and what we really want is to be able to grow the plants we desire in the tanks that we’ve got….Therein lies the challenge. 😊

I’d love to have softer water for example, I feel my life would be much easier that way….but what I won’t do is start using RO in a 700ltr tank so I’ve got what I’ve got! My Vals at least, love me for it. 😂

 

[eminor]

This is where these conversations get tricky. People often make the mistake of immediately correlating every problem to nutrients. In reality it could be a number of different things.

Here is my Cabomba Furcata grown with 25 ppm NO3 and 8 ppm PO4 in the water column.View attachment 185254

That's hobby is a dance, 1 step forward, 2 backward

We need data from natural habitat, but where find that, nothing can beat nature right ?

 

[GreggZ]

I am hoping this is enough links and pictures, to show that EI does not work for all plants.

In my opinion the pics show nothing of the sort. There could any number of different issues that could cause Ammania to stunt and twist.

However I do agree with your greater hypothesis. EI is not the best dosing scheme for all plants. And similarly lean dosing is not the best dosing scheme for all plants. In fact, there are huge number of plants species available in the hobby and many have different peak preferred parameters, and some plants will simply be difficult to keep in peak form in the same tank.

The truth is many times people would be better off dropping some species and try to find ones that like the soup they serving.