George's TMC Signature

[George Farmer]

With reference to adding additional C02, attitudes might have changed in recent years but, I can remember this subject being discussed at length on the planted tank forum & I am sure Tom was a contributor to that particular thread?
Anyway it was decided that adding C02 was a total waste of time!
As we have establish from the start of this thread, there seems to be many avenues to success!

Ok, cool. I'll do a bit more research, and hopefully Tom can add his thoughts/experiences - and anyone else for that matter, of course.

 

[plantbrain]

Regarding yogurt, I have an old text that suggest using milk (whole) and moss in a blender and then paint that over a stone or whatever you want to moss, and keep it cool and wet for the next 2 weeks.

So Ole's suggestion is spot on, different milk product, but very similar, smells like Hell in your aquarium though, better to do the aquarium water.
Yea, I've done it out side, would never stink the home up inside, you can get evicted for that type of stuff. Japanese landscape stones that need some moss to look aged get this treatment FYI.
I've grown moss outside in bonsai for years. I'll take a new pic of that same Juniper and you can see if I'm good at what I do.
The entire thing is covered. And it's pretty dry in California.
DSM folks run into trouble when they go 100% humidity. Fungus, soil algae etc.

We find moss on trees, all over here, but only when its cooler and has been wet, but it'll grow well in between also, just do not let it get too dry at first, so maybe good 100% humidity initially, but not more than a week or two.
Darrel's suggestion is good, you do not need to totally uncover the DSM, just leave a small gap, this will exchange CO2/O2 in/out of the tank.

I leave a small gap in any DSM I've done, this improves everything and reduces the mold/algae issues. I have some Buce's, maybe 1000$ worth, sitting in a simple tupperware tray that has some holes on the bottom of the lid, plenty of air/in/out etc.
This sits right on top on my 70Gal next to the t5's, plenty of heat and light. Those are Buce's, not moss. Moss is wimpy initially. I wet it out 1-2x a day and place in indirect sunlight, never direct. After 2 weeks, then you can move it.

Adding CO2 to a DMS is a waste of time IME. I tried it on many species when I had a 55 Gallon emergent tank for 3 years or so. Remember, CO2 is heavier than air, and no O2= bad for plants in a sealed DSM.

So a little exchange, not a 100% sealed, is best. What species of moss are you using?
Something like xmas, bulletproof, Fissidens works very well with the method I just suggested. The end result is far better than taking submersed grown Fissidens and then tying to wood and hoping it stays put with cotton thread
Fissidens and many species of moss require a DSM for good attachment it seems. I might be wrong, but I've never seen it attach so well unless a DSM was done.
I have not yet tried this with Mini Pellia, but I certainly plan to.

Cut each piece of moss with a razor? Will Ole come to your home to help you do that fun chore from Hades? haha, I think not, to the blender with your green protein moss shake!

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

Anyway it was decided that adding C02 was a total waste of time!

It definitely would be a waste of time for the mosses, but higher plants like Tomatoes will show a response to higher CO2. I would think for the plants you might grow DSM it wouldn't offer much appreciable increase in growth rate.

From <Carbon Dioxide In Greenhouses>

cheers Darrel

 

[George Farmer]

Thanks, Tom and Darrel.

Hi all,

It definitely would be a waste of time for the mosses, but higher plants like Tomatoes will show a response to higher CO2. I would think for the plants you might grow DSM it wouldn't offer much appreciable increase in growth rate.

From <Carbon Dioxide In Greenhouses>

cheers Darrel

Hmmm... Not sure if tomatoes would suit the aquascape, Darrel!

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

Not sure if tomatoes would suit the aquascape

No, they do better emersed, but if you had enough CO2........

cheers Darrel

 

[George Farmer]

OK, so assuming I follow Tom's DSM advice; I leave a small gap to allow for gas exchange etc., let's say after a week of it being totally covered - hopefully long enough to let the moss establish a bit.

By leaving a gap I guess I will need to spray a little more often.

So my next question - do I spray with RO, or RO with a little nutrients added. If the latter, what's a good mix? I'll use TPN+ (now re-branded as Tropica Specialised).

I'm guessing too much nutrients will burn the moss? But if I'm running high lighting, will the moss need the extra nutrients?

Reminder of plant list -

Riccadia chamedryfolia
Fissidens fontanus
Vesicularia ferriei 'Weeping'

Eleocharis sp. 'mini'
Eleocharis parvula

Ammania sp. 'Bonsai'
Hottonia palustris
Ludwigia sp.

The soil is used TMC NutraSoil with nutrients added (500ml TPN+).

This afternoon I'm hoping to at least get the hardscape re-installed. I've even printed out a photo of the original layout to use as reference next to the tank.

The manzy wood has been soaking for about a week. I'm hoping that the humidity and regular spraying during the DSM phase will prevent it from drying out and floating when it comes to flooding.

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

do I spray with RO, or RO with a little nutrients added. If the latter, what's a good mix? I'll use TPN+ (now re-branded as Tropica Specialised).

Straight RO, or very, very dilute for the misting.

I'm guessing too much nutrients will burn the moss?

It definitely will.

But if I'm running high lighting, will the moss need the extra nutrients?

I don't think so, if the light levels are too high the photo-systems of the moss will suffer damage whatever happens. Bryophytes aren't like higher plants, they will have maximum productivities orders of magnitude lower than higher plants.
From <Do t8 lights really degrade over time? | Page 2 | UK Aquatic Plant Society>

This energy transfer mechanism is a non-radiative method known as Fluorescence Resonance Energy Transfer (FRET). It is FRET that allows the plant to be able to use all wavelengths in the visible spectrum, not just Blue and Red. Even more important is the function of Aux pigments to fluoresce away photons when the energy inputs are too high, which damages the plant and actually inhibits growth rates

cheers Darrel

 

[George Farmer]

Thanks, Darrel. This goes back to your idea of filtering out some lighting using green plastic etc.

I don't suppose we have any actual figures (PAR) for what constitutes 'too much light' for my chosen species of moss?

I've taken a quick measurement and it is 80umol at the nearest point to the light where the moss will be. I can control the light to give any desired PAR up to this maximum.

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

I don't suppose we have any actual figures (PAR) for what constitutes 'too much light' for my chosen species of moss?

We do <http://www.bryoecol.mtu.edu/chapters/9-1LightShade.pdf>

cheers Darrel

 

[Marcel G]

Hi Darrel,
can I ask you, what light intensity (µmol PAR) would you recommend for aquatic mosses? In the paper (PDF) there is writen that "light compensation point" (LCP) for some mosses being somewhere between 4-12 µmol PAR, but some kinds of mosses have LCP aroud 30 µmol PAR. Also the mosses in the paper are rather terrestrial mosses (although I suppose the aquatic ones will have simillar LCP). On some other forums (e.g. barrreport.com) I had read that for low-light (shady) aquatic plants we should use at least 30-35 µmol PAR. What do you think about it? Is this correct assumption/recommendation? Also I would to know if you have any practical experiences as to the LCP of some most common aquatic mosses/plants: What is the LCP of aquatic Fissidens, Vesicularia, Taxiphyllum, Anubias ... or other low-light/high-light plants? I will be appreciative for any data/suggestions.

PS: Do you have some suggestion for what minimum light intensity (µmol PAR) should we aim for in our natural aquaria (at the substrate = in the lowest levels) ... how much PAR for low-tech vs. high-tech?

Marcel

 

[George Farmer]

Good questions, Ardjuna, and welcome to UKAPS.

Tropica state that Riccardia and Fissidens require more light than other mosses.

I visited the Tropica nurseries in Denmark and they were growing their mosses in greenhouses with little or no shading, if I remember correctly. And isn't PAR on a typical overcast day about 200umol? This suggests to me that my lighting may be ok. I will speak with Troels Andersen and report back!

 

[foxfish]

Hi all,

It definitely would be a waste of time for the mosses, but higher plants like Tomatoes will show a response to higher CO2. I would think for the plants you might grow DSM it wouldn't offer much appreciable increase in growth rate.

From <Carbon Dioxide In Greenhouses>

cheers Darrel

Hey Darrel, I live in Guernsey, the once tomato growing centre of the World! I managed a very big tomato vinery, with an added kio farm & tourist attraction, for many years! I must add this was in an era when organic growing was unheard of & we all worked in a haze of C02 & pesticides!!

 

[Marcel G]

Tropica state that Riccardia and Fissidens require more light than other mosses. I visited the Tropica nurseries in Denmark and they were growing their mosses in greenhouses with little or no shading, if I remember correctly. And isn't PAR on a typical overcast day about 200umol? This suggests to me that my lighting may be ok. I will speak with Troels Andersen and report back!

Hi George,
I doubt 200 µmol PAR is the recommended light intensity for growing mosses. I have about 70 µmol PAR at the substrate in my two nano tanks, and I would say this light intensity is more than suitable for all kinds of aquatic plants, including high-light plants. The low-light plants don't need as much light. Tom Barr suggests 50 µmol PAR (measured at the substrate) for high-light plants. So if at Tropica they grow mosses at 200 µmol PAR, that's much more higher light that most of us are using in our tanks (no doubt). Anyway I will be glad if you report back what T.Andersen said. Tanks!

Also you can check my page for other measurements:
Přírodní akvárium

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

can I ask you, what light intensity (µmol PAR) would you recommend for aquatic mosses? In the paper (PDF) there is writen that "light compensation point" (LCP) for some mosses being somewhere between 4-12 µmol PAR, but some kinds of mosses have LCP aroud 30 µmol PAR. Also the mosses in the paper are rather terrestrial mosses (although I suppose the aquatic ones will have simillar LCP). On some other forums (e.g. barrreport.com) I had read that for low-light (shady) aquatic plants we should use at least 30-35 µmol PAR.

Good post, these are the questions that we need answered, unfortunately I don't know the answers to many of them, and I don't have access to PAR meter.

What do you think about it? Is this correct assumption /recommendation? Also I would to know if you have any practical experiences as to the LCP of some most common aquatic mosses/plants: What is the LCP of aquatic Fissidens, Vesicularia, Taxiphyllum, Anubias ... or other low-light/high-light plants? I will be appreciative for any data/suggestions.

Again purely guess work, but I would assume that aquatic mosses will have fairly low LCP values, and I don't see that "somewhere between 4-12 µmol PAR" is unreasonable. There are maximum and minimum figures for higher plants from "Physiological Ecology of Tropical Plants" Ulrich Lüttge at <http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=nEbQAtyUJt8C&pg=PA194&lpg=PA194&dq=light+compensation+point+Aroid&source=bl&ots=I_kPfz04sX&sig=ggqk-ITpi_KQKNR3TRh1xU4ddG8&hl=en&sa=X&ei=UaMLUcidAsfW0QW4yYDgDg&sqi=2&ved=0CEYQ6AEwBA#v=onepage&q=light%20compensation%20point%20Aroid&f=false>, which suggests that 0.5µmol photons m-2 sec-1 may be the lower limit for shade plants, and 60 - 200 the upper limit.

cheers Darrel

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

Hey Darrel, I live in Guernsey, the once tomato growing centre of the World! I managed a very big tomato vinery, with an added kio farm & tourist attraction, for many years!

Sad the way things go, you can't compete with cheap gas in the Netherlands and Spanish plastic unless the Government are willing to do their bit.

I must add this was in an era when organic growing was unheard of & we all worked in a haze of C02 & pesticides!!

You'd be fine now, they still have the CO2, but they use IPM for pest control. When I worked on the nursery we were told to be careful with the "Temik", because the Bhopal factory making it had blown up and it was in short supply, but nothing about how toxic it was.
I mucked about a bit at Bath University with perlite trough culture for Tomatoes, but I knew it was a dead duck right from the start.

Did you grow Kiwi Fruit after the Tomatoes had gone? I remember it was a short-lived boom that was going to keep the glass productive.

cheers Darrel

 

[George Farmer]

Hey Darrel, sorry to break up the tomato party between you and foxfish but I have some news regarding my tank! lol (Just kidding guys - I feel honoured that two of the most respected UKAPS members are posting so much in my journal).

So today I actually managed to get some planting done! It's so exciting for me; the first time I've touched an aquarium plant since May last year.

It's also my first ever attempt at attaching mosses using the 'blender' method. Here's what I did...

1. Put the moss into a plastic jug. Here I am using a mix of Riccardia chamedryfolia and Fissidens fontanus with a 4:1 ratio of Riccardia to Fissidens. I have decided not to use weeping moss at the moment. The idea between mixing the species is to hopefully create a more natural effect as the different textures merge.

2. Add a blob of greek yoghurt to about 100ml of RO water and mix.

3. Add the yoghurt solution to the plastic jug.

4. I used a hand-held blender to chop up the Riccardia/Fissidens.

5. The result is a green liquid containing millions of tiny pieces of moss.

moss paste by George Farmer, on Flickr

6. I use a paintbrush to attach the moss to the wood and rocks.

moss brush by George Farmer, on Flickr

The result looks quite effective, I think.


moss closeup by George Farmer, on Flickr


moss close2 by George Farmer, on Flickr


moss complete by George Farmer, on Flickr

The tank is covered with polythene (awaiting a custom-built cover glass) and have set my heating mat so there's a relatively constant 21C air temperature inside. The soil is slightly warmer. Room temperature is 18-20C.

The photoperiod has been set to 14hrs, with 2hrs ramping up and down at end of the period, so 10hrs at max intensity (<=80 PAR).

I will leave the tank covered for the first week.

Then I will fit my cover glass so a small air gap can encourage some gas exchange, as recommended by Mr Barr.

I happened to find a bottle of "Do!Aqua Be Bright" in my garage so am considering using this to spray the plants. be Bright, do!aqua liquid additive for growing plants emersed

Tomorrow I plant the remaining plants (mainly hairgrass and some stems).

 

[Iain Sutherland]

Nice george, look forward to seeing how the moss paint works for you. All going well i think it will give a great natural feel to the tank.
Only thing i would mention is when you do start spraying be sure to use a mister not a spray and do it from distance or it tends to wash the moss away until it attaches properly.

 

[Eboeagles]

I'm very late to this party but an amazing journal George (as to be expected), it's got to be the best I've read for a while, mainly due to everyone pitching in with thoughts, advice and even tomatoes!

Very interested in the yogurt DSM comments - keep meaning to try some DSM moss stones and this is inspiring me to go for it.

I'm sure you've seen this, but I love this DSM journal here and it's one of my favourite scapes:

Aquatic Plant Central

Looking forward to watching this and seeing it start growing in.

 

[Marcel G]

It's also my first ever attempt at attaching mosses using the 'blender' method. Here's what I did... 2) Add a blob of greek yoghurt to about 100ml of RO water and mix.

Hi George, how did you come to the idea of "greek yogurt"? And how much of it do you use (what is "blob")?

 

[George Farmer]

Hi George, how did you come to the idea of "greek yogurt"? And how much of it do you use (what is "blob")?

Hi,

Ole Pedersen recommended a yoghurt containing L. acidophilus. Apparently the acidity helps prevent fungal growth. One blob is exactly 5.34ml.